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Hello my name is Mike. I live in Seabrook Tx. I have been attending a large church in the Houston area for about a year or so. I have visited other churches but quickly realized they were reformed or Calvinistic. I have been reading and listening intently to the new pastor and other speakers since visiting this new church to determine their views and beliefs on Calvinism but have not been able to hear any catch phrases that would be a dead giveaway. It's almost as though they are riding the fence on that topic. I hear the gospel preached. I see people respond but still not certain. Any advice on this would be greatly appeciated. Mike ps this is my first post.
ReplyDelete(Here's a short version of the reply I sent to Mike. My blog won't let me post a reply that's too long.)
DeleteHi Mike, Thank you for your comment and question.... Here are some suggestions of what you can do):
1. Ask the pastors/elders directly - in person or email (email might be best because you get a written copy of what they say) - where they stand on Calvinism and TULIP. If they answer with a question or statement about believing in grace, God's sovereignty, that man can't save himself, etc., then they are probably Calvinists who don't want to reveal it. If they say something like "I don't call myself a Calvinist," ask them "How many points of TULIP do you affirm?" Don't let them be vague, but insist - politely - on a clear answer. If they are evasive too much, they are probably Calvinists who don't want to be found out. (And ask if they require people they hire to hold to reformed/Calvinist teaching. And ask where the pastor went to school. Some schools are Calvinist to the core.)
2. Do a search through their sermons and blog posts using the words "predestination, election, sovereign, free will, Romans 9, etc." and see if anything pops up. And read their statement of faith.
3. Also, listen for and look for the theologians they quote from or recommend in the church library. Of course, some Calvinist quotes might get into even non-Calvinist churches, but look for patterns, heavy biases, or skewed resources/quotes, etc. And listen for if they praise Calvinist theologians by name, calling them "wonderful theologians" or something like that.
4. Of course, be aware that Calvinists can deliberately sound very non-Calvinist sometimes, using words like free-will and human responsibility and choice, etc. So if you can, ask them to define what they mean by these words. Ask them to define sovereignty and predestination too. Their definitions will tell you a lot. Another idea: ask them to explain the general points of Romans 9.
5. On the other side though, keep in mind that non-Calvinists can sometimes sound Calvinist, because they grew up with and absorbed Calvinist wording/ideas even though they don't affirm Calvinist theology. So it's always best to ask them to explain themselves more, their beliefs and definitions. Some non-Calvinist don't really understand the debate around or dangers of Calvinism, and so they don't know enough to know they should outright reject it, instead of tolerating it. Sometimes, a little grace needs to be given because they might not intend to sound Calvinisty, even if they do sometimes.
6. Type in your church's name on the "church search/finder" page for The Gospel Coalition, 9Marks, and Acts 29, and see if you are listed with these organizations. To be listed with these, a church is supposed to affirm Calvinism.
Just some ideas, but of course, nothing is foolproof, especially when Calvinists have become very good at being stealthily.... But that being said, there are still some good churches out there and ones that don't directly teach Calvinism even if the pastor himself might be Calvinist. Some Calvinist pastors truly just want to focus on the simple Bible truths and gospel, and so they don't make their Calvinism an issue or try to push it, even if it seeps in a little now and then. I hope you found a good church, but it's great that you're always trying to be discerning, to be a good Berean. (But I know this does make it hard to ever relax and trust a church. But I think those are the kind of days we're living in.)
God bless. And thanks again for your comment. - Heather
Thanks Heather for replying to my post. So I took your advice and searched thru some sermon history and found what I was looking for. Yep...full blown Calvinist. I had emailed this particular speaker a while back but he never responded. So now not sure what to do. It's disappointing because I actually liked the preaching and people responding to the invitation. Some of the quotes in his message were something like "The doctrine of divine election vs doctrine of free will....like two train tracks that lead in the same direction...these two doctrines cannot be harmonized in our own minds but they can in God's." And he quoted Henry Ward Beecher (didn’t see his name on your list) said “The elect are whosoever will…and the non-elect are whosoever won't." This is a large church and just wondering how many people realize that this a Calvinist church...or how many know what Calvinism is or how many even care. Also would it be possible for others at this church who don't agree with this doctrine. Changing churches is a very unpleasant journey. But thanks again Heather for your help and concern. Mike R
Delete(Sorry this is late. I thought I published this reply already.) Hi Mike, It's sad it turned out to be Calvinist. And it's even sadder that they aren't up front about it. But I agree that only Calvinists talk about the doctrine of election and doctrine of free-will being like two train tracks. (And it seems to me that only Calvinists emphasize election as a "doctrine.") Non-Calvinists don't have to use that analogy because non-Calvinists are not trying to rationalize the wrong idea that God predestines people's decisions but then holds them responsible for it.
DeleteI will look into Henry Ward Beecher. Thanks for sharing. I haven't really noticed him before. But I do wonder if "the elect are whosoever will and non-elect are whosoever won't" can be used by Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike. It all comes down to HOW do people decide if they will or won't: Does God preplan/cause it, or do all people truly have the ability to become one of the elect by being able to choose Christ?
Maybe keep trying for a response from them, just so you can't get some sort of conclusive answer from their mouths, in case you ever need to refer to it or share it with others. They should give answers to honest questions about what they are teaching. And I understand the frustration of not knowing what to do now. We went through that too after we realized that our pastor was a stealth Calvinist taking over our church and that no one else seemed to notice or care. It's frustrating and disheartening, especially when no one else seems bothered by it. Hopefully, you can find a few more like-minded people who are also concerned about it.
If you intend to stay there awhile and if you know people there, maybe begin by asking around if others have ever heard of Calvinism and if teachings like that would bother them. Share a few resources with them, like Soteriology 101, so that they have a source to go to if they wonder what you're talking about. And maybe try to gather a few quotes that show the pastor to be Calvinist so that you can share them if you need them. Basically, find ways to plant some seeds in people's minds. Maybe it will help wake some people up and educate them. And if they are concerned too, then at least they'll know that they're not alone, that you are concerned too. And, of course, the best thing you can do is pray about it and ask God to open the doors He wants opened to you and to bring you to the people He wants you to talk to. And then see where God leads.
God bless your efforts and journey. I'm sorry it didn't turn out to be a non-Calvinist church. We finally found one that's non-Calvinist, but we are still always looking out for it, always flinching at certain words and phrases and verses, wondering if they will fall into Calvinism themselves and then try to push it stealthily. It's like a religious PTSD.
God bless! And thank you for your comments. :)
- Heather
Correction of a typo: "... just so you CAN get some sort of conclusive answer..."
DeleteHi Heather, thank you for the time and effort you put into your blog exposing Calvinism and also how to heal from it.
ReplyDeleteAbout 9 months ago, after moving, my husband searched for new churches using 9Marks. The priority was expository teaching vs topical (our previous church was non-calvinist, and had topical teachings). I was completely unaware he was being pulled into Calvinism during the new church search. Neither of us ever heard of Calvinism nor talked about it before. The church he chose, that we are now members of (I was pressured into), is fully Calvinist - it is outlined in their "Our Beliefs" section of their website, the Pastors graduated Masters Seminary and each week, the sermons include some/all aspects of TULIP. The Pastors from the pulpit frequently use phrases like other denominations are not real christians/the True Church, and that their doctrines are the only correct, true ones and everything else is "absurd".
My question for guidance is - how do I continue going to a church that is preaching a false / twisted Gospel? I’ve expressed my concerns to my husband and he is not willing to discuss. He idolizes these Pastors and does not respect any wisdom from me, his wife. His responses have been parroting these Calvinist teachers by saying I don't have a high view of God/Scripture, and that if Jesus died for ALL, then His blood was wasted. Mind you, in our 5 years together, prior to joining this Calvinist church, we both believed in the trust Gospel, that Jesus sacrificed for all, so that all would have an opportunity to be made right with God, by having faith, believing and repenting. We've never been more spiritually disconnected as we are now. He is firmly in the grasp of satan, following these false teachings, and I am at a loss of what to do.
I am leaning towards resigning my membership and no longer attending with him; I truly do not see how it’s ok to sit under false teaching and would appreciate guidance of what is right biblically. This period of 9 months has left me spiritually starving, hopeless, and confused and I don't know how to continue to attend, but also trying to love and honor my husband. This is not something I can bring to my church leadership because they are firmly in the camp, and preaching, that wives are to submit to their husbands (even in abusive situations) and follow their lead, no matter what.
Hi Melissa, I'm just letting you know that I published a long reply for you in the comment section. I'm not sure if you were notified that I replied to you because I inadvertently put it in as a comment to the blog, not a reply to you. So I'm clicking "reply" now, to let you know. :)
DeleteHello again, Melissa. Just letting you know I emailed you yesterday and the day before. I hope you got them. If not, let me know. (At first, I added this comment after my comments below, but then I removed it from there to add it up here after your comment. Just FYI.) :)
DeleteOh my goodness, Melissa! I am so sorry! What a difficult, discouraging situation to be in! There really is no easy answer here, is there? (But thank you for contacting me. I'd love to help in any way I can. If you want to stay in contact by email instead of in the comment section, send me a new comment with your email which I will NOT publish, but then I can email you back personally. And we can talk that way. And I might be able to help you connect with a couple more women I trust who might be able to offer their advice too, if you want. FYI: I have to break my reply in this comment section up into a couple pieces because it's too long.)
ReplyDeleteI wish I had easy answers for this, but I don't. Firstly, though, I think it's amazing that you were able to keep your head about you in the midst of all the false teaching and to see that it didn't line up with Scripture, even though everything and everyone around you was pressuring you to join on board, including your husband. It takes a strong person to resist that pressure and the controlling, cult-like, deceptive methods. But I am so sorry your husband got sucked in.
And I understand what you mean when you say you feel spiritually starved, hopeless, and confused. I felt the same way. Except for me, my husband was on my side. So I can't imagine the pain you feel being in that church with your husband on their side. Ugh! I'm so sorry.
I don't think there's a quick easy answer to this, but it might take some time and prayer to figure out. I would say, at the very least, that you should make sure you're getting true gospel truth from somewhere else during the week (the Bible, books, online sermons - my go-to pastors are Charles Stanley, Tony Evans, Andy Woods). And you should, as much as possible, quit listening to the pastor at your church, even if you still attend with your husband. You could put in ear buds and listen to something else or sit in another room and read. I know that whatever you do - if it's different than what your husband does - it's going to be difficult and uncomfortable. But I also know that listening to that stuff over and over again suffocates our souls, kills our faith/joy, and makes us angry all the time. And so we can't sit and listen to that stuff. It's not worth the damage it does to our spirits, hearts, and our faith.
While I don't ever like to suggest that wives and husbands attend different churches (because that puts a rift in the marriage, which I think is tragic and risky), I do think this issue is larger than that. And in these situations, sometimes hard decisions and sacrifices have to be made, often resulting in a less-than-ideal situation.
Does your husband know how badly this is affecting your heart and soul and faith? If not, maybe you should sit him down and clearly tell him, not focusing on the bad theology at all, but on the fact that it's not the right church for you, that it's so crushing to you that you cannot stay there anymore the way things are, and that you want to find another church with him where you both feel comfortable and spiritually-fed. Let him know (gently and with love) that you want to do that together, but that you're hurting enough that you'll make changes on your own if you have to, even if it just means bringing a book to church for now or staying home alone watching sermons online while he goes to church. And then allow some time to see if he gets on board, keeping him informed (gently and lovingly) of where you are in the process to give him a chance to slowly join you. (Would he be willing to read a different theology book? I totally recommend Tony Evans' Theology You Can Trust, and his Our God is Awesome, and his Bible Commentary.)
Part 2, for Melissa:
DeleteAnd if push comes to shove, maybe resigning your membership is the best, most honest way to go, especially since - most likely - a 9Marks church probably has it in the contract that you have to agree with their theology to be a member (might want to check on that).
And while I hate to say it and add more fuel to fire, it might be good to resign now before your disagreement becomes too public - because the longer you're a member, the more chance there is for them to put you under church discipline, especially if you start speaking out against them or disagreeing with your husband. (Look up The Wartburg Watch, and search around for their articles of 9Marks churches and church membership contracts and how to resign your membership, etc. It might give you a good idea what you could be facing.)
If you're husband doesn't like you resigning, maybe tell him that you're just abiding by your membership contract (if it specifies that you can only be a member if you agree with their theology) and that you're resigning out of honesty and of respect for them.
And no matter what you do, find some support for yourself, friends or others who know what you're going through. And keep praying for guidance, that God would guide your steps and fight your battle. And pray for your husband. Pray that God puts the truth in his path repeatedly, that the Spirit helps him sense something is wrong, pray that the church's bad theology/leadership is exposed, maybe even pray that something happens (unrelated to theology) that will upset him enough to make him want to leave.
Also pray against demonic harassment and interference. Remember that some things that appear to be earthly problems are actually spiritual problems/spiritual warfare issues. So don't confuse the two. (Have you ever seen War Room? Good movie.) And remember that as a believer, you have the right and authority to use Jesus's name against demons, something as simply as "In the name of Jesus Christ, I command you to leave." Remember this in case you ever need it, in case you upset the demons so much that they feel the need to come after you. (If they do, it's normal. I've been there before, and so have friends of mine. So don't be afraid.)
There are many layers to your situations, many complicating factors. It's no wonder you're struggling with this. But I admire your desire to do that right thing, the godly thing, and the godly-wife thing, even if it's not easy to figure out what it is right now. I'll be praying for you and your husband. And feel free to send me your email if you want to stay in touch or want me to try to connect you with a couple other women who could offer different advice. God bless! :)
- Heather
The Gospel Project: Do you or anyone here have specific wordage or examples of non biblical or calvinist material within this Bible study. I know it was written by mostly calvinists so I would never do this study myself...but would like to warn others with more practical data....and save reading the entire thing myself...has anyone else read through the curriculum and have any thoughts. Or know of any critical articles on the subject. Also, THANK YOU HEATHER for making a blog right out of what my heart and mind have been saying ever since I found out what Calvinist was when unfortunately my teens started going to a youth group. My daughter knew something wasn't right when they would say things that weren't biblical. Long story. But your Blog says it ALL.
ReplyDeleteHello MPenny, No, I haven't researched the Gospel Project myself either. Maybe that's a project for the future. :) But here's a post from someone else about all the Calvinists who run the Gospel Project: https://sapulpamessenger.com/subtle-secrets-gospel-project/. Maybe there will be more info on that site (I know nothing else about that website than that post, so be discerning).
DeleteAnd thank you so much for the kind words and for taking the time to leave a comment. But I am sorry that you know how all this feels. It's sad to know that Calvinism has hurt so many other people and churches too.
But I'm glad your daughter knew right away that something wasn't right. That shows great discernment... and great strength, to be able to stand up against the majority, against the leadership that's pushing it on her and insisting its biblical theology. I hope and pray that God has used that experience for good for your family and those around you, even though it's a hard thing to go through. God bless! :)
Also, here's one article worth noting: https://www.challies.com/sponsored/7-things-you-should-know-about-the-gospel-project/.
DeleteIn this article, the Brand Manager of The Gospel Project says this:
"How do we know we can trust the content of The Gospel Project?
This is an important question, and it really comes down to two things: our doctrine and our people. First, our doctrine: We have a very robust set of doctrinal guidelines that serve as our plumb line if you will. Our editors are diligent about keeping all of our contributors in alignment with these at all times."
And if you click on the link in their article to their doctrinal guidelines (Lifeway's guidelines - so be wary of all resources from them), you can discern that their theology lines up with Reformed/Calvinist theology.
In particular, these two parts:
1. "Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.... Repentance is a genuine turning from sin toward God. Faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ and commitment of the entire personality to Him as Lord and Saviour."
Unless I'm reading this wrong (because it is obviously very carefully worded), this is regeneration by the Holy Spirit BEFORE faith and repentance, regeneration leading to and resulting in faith and repentance. It's the Holy Spirit changing someone's heart and causing them to be born again first, so that they can then repent and believe in Jesus. A clear Calvinist/Reformed concept. [And embedded in this teaching is that only those whom the Holy Spirit chooses to regenerate can have faith and be saved. Those who aren't chosen to be regenerated can never have faith, so they can never be saved.]
But biblically, it's reverse: The Holy Spirit regenerates those who first repent and turn to Christ. People choose to put their faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and then the Holy Spirit indwells them, makes them born again, and regenerates them into a new creation.
I agree with Calvinists that, yes, the Holy Spirit's job is to convict people of sin and make people born again. That's His job, something only He can do. But our job - the one thing God requires us to do to be saved - is to respond to that conviction of sin and believe in Jesus as our Lord and Savior ... and then the Spirit regenerates us and makes us born again. But Calvinism reverses that, saying that first the Spirit regenerates us/makes us born again and then we believe. That's a whole different way of being saved. But it's a subtle deception that escapes many people's attention because it uses the same words and ideas, just in a reverse order.
The Spirit doesn't take selected sinners and regenerate them into believers, but He takes believers and regenerates them into new creations.
(See next comment. it was too long to fit into one.)
2. And the Lifeway guidelines also say: "Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. It is consistent with the free agency of man, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end. It is the glorious display of God's sovereign goodness, and is infinitely wise, holy, and unchangeable. It excludes boasting and promotes humility."
DeleteI would interpret this as saying that God controls the ends as well as the means, that God controls (predestines) who gets saved as well as how they get saved. This is a Calvinist/Reformed concept.
And Lifeway is defining election as related to salvation, the salvation of individual people. This is not what election is, biblically. Election is about God choosing how to use people in His plans, about choosing people/people groups for certain roles, responsibilities, blessings. It's not about choosing who gets saved. (I highly recommend Tony Evan's Bible Commentary. He covers this so well!) So anyone who defines election as related to individual salvation is Reformed/Calvinist, in my mind.
[And it's the same with "predestination." Biblically, predestination is not about God preplanning who believes, but it's about what God has preplanned for those who choose to believe in Jesus. And anyone can. So anyone who defines predestination as related to individual salvation - to who gets saved and how they get saved - is most likely a Calvinist. Either that, or they just don't realize that Calvinism's definition of predestination has infiltrated their thinking and affected their theology, even though they don't consider themselves a Calvinist.]
Also, Calvinist/Reformed theology always ties election to God's sovereignty to "It excludes boasting and promotes humility." They believe that God only gets all the glory for saving us if He does it all for us - predestining who gets saved and how they get saved, and regenerating "the elect" to make them have faith.
Calvinists wrongly think that "making a free-will choice to believe in Jesus, to accept an offer of salvation" means that the person "saved themselves," and so that person will boast. This is because they incorrectly define "accepting the offer of salvation" as "working for salvation." And so therefore, in Calvinism, we cannot have a real free-will ability to choose to accept (or reject) the offer of salvation, but God must do it for us - or else we "worked for our salvation" and can boast about "saving ourselves." [Hogwash!]
So while all this might be subtle, and many people might miss it, I think that the Brand Manager himself confirms that The Gospel Project was written to adhere to Calvinist/Reformed theology.
And even if a project doesn't use distinct Calvinist terms or obviously and honestly share their terrible doctrines, a Calvinist's fundamental theological views of God, how He works, what Jesus accomplished on the cross, who He died for, how people get saved, who can be saved, who's truly responsible for all sin and evil, and whether we make our own real choices or if God pre-made them for us, etc., will invade and infect every area of their theology, every issue they address and everything they teach, even if it's covert enough that most people miss it.
That being said, I think that Calvinism/Reformed theology has a biblical surface-layer that they often present to people first, while they hide/obscure/sugarcoat the deeper "clearly Calvinist" layer. And therefore, many people could still get a lot of good Bible truth out of it, out of the biblical surface-layer... because they're completely aware of what Calvinists are really teaching, unaware that there are deeper, hidden Calvinist layers that contradict, qualify, negate, or alter the biblical surface-layer.
DeleteBut I would warn that even if there is a good biblical surface-layer and if people can't quickly sense the underlying Calvinism, people who continue to listen to Calvinist teachings will slowly have their thinking modified and molded in all sorts of theological areas to be conformed to Calvinism. And before they know it, they'll be a Calvinist, not knowing how or when they got there.
While it's a slower process, a subtle and stealthy "backdoor" approach is much more effective in molding people's thinking than boldly storming in the front door. I'm saying this in general about Calvinism/Reformed theology, not specifically about The Gospel Project. But I still say it's something to be wary of and to be discerning about. Because it's the subtle that gets us, not the obvious.
God bless, MPenny! And thanks again for your comment. Sorry I couldn't be more help with specifics. :)
Update:
DeleteHere's something from Lifeway about (from?) The Gospel Project, answering the question "How do human actions and God's plans work together?" (https://gospelproject.lifeway.com/human-action-god-plans/):
"... God is in complete control over all things. This is what Christians mean when they call God 'sovereign.'... the Lord’s plans go forward through the choices of human beings as moral agents, including our freely chosen sinful actions! Everything we do is what we want to do, while also being a part of God’s plan. They are what we want and what God wants."
To me, this is Calvinism. It's a little veiled, but it's Calvinism. It's saying that all our actions, even our "freely chosen" sins, were wanted, preplanned, caused, controlled by God.
You see, in Calvinism, "freely chosen" doesn't mean that we have the ability to choose what we want to do among various real options that are truly available to us, or that we can change our minds.
It simply means that God has built into our natures the desires He wants us to have that will cause us to "freely choose" to do what He predestined us to do, even sin and evil. We will follow - must follow, can only follow - the desires He built into our natures/wills (because we have no other desires than what He gave us), and so God doesn't have to physically "force" us to do it. We "freely choose" to sin because we "want" to sin, according to the desires He determined for us. We cannot pick our desires, change our desires, or resist our desires, and so we will definitely do the things God predestined us to do because that's the only things we have the ability to "want" to do.
It's like me giving you a magic potion that gives you the irresistible desire to kick every puppy you see. Because of that potion, you "want" to kick all those puppies... and you must follow the desire to kick all those puppies... and so you will "freely choose" to kick all those puppies (I don't have to physically pick up your foot or hold a gun to your head to "force" you to do it)... and so you can be held accountable for kicking all those puppies because you did what you "wanted" to do, even though it's exactly what I predetermined to happen and you had no ability to want to do or choose to do anything else.
This is what "freely choosing" means in Calvinism - that we "freely choose" to do what our God-determined desires tell us to do, and we couldn't do anything else. But because we "wanted" to do it, God didn't have to physically "force" us to do it, and so we are "responsible" for doing it. [It's hogwash!]
And here's the Lifeway/Gospel Project post called "What is the mystery of election?" (https://gospelproject.lifeway.com/mystery-election-video/), which is completely Calvinist. (Defining election as related to personal, individual salvation - instead of God choosing how to use people in His plans - is totally Calvinist.)
And it ends by sharing the goal of evangelism: "we are called to share the gospel with everyone, calling them to believe in Jesus, doing so confidently because some of them will believe."
Translation: "Evangelism/the gospel is not to save everyone, but it's to only save some people, the prechosen 'elect.'" [And likewise, here's a podcast from them about "Salvation and God's ability to make choices." (https://gospelproject.lifeway.com/salvation-god-ability-make-choices-ep-218/) Totally Calvinist!]
And here's one on "Regeneration" (https://gospelproject.lifeway.com/born-again-regeneration-video/) that, once again, says that regeneration/being born again by the Spirit comes before faith: "[Regeneration is] a heart change to which we respond in repentance and faith."
This is just a few things I found related specifically to The Gospel Project, which I think shows the Calvinism that underlies it all.
And one more update (broken up in pieces because it's too long), explaining why I think that podcast I mentioned above is Calvinist:
DeleteFor starters, once again, they define election as being about the salvation of individual people and they say that it's God's choice whom to save: "Election is about God's grace in saving people. Does God have a choice [in who is saved]? Yes, He does..." And then to "prove" it, they present out-of-context or misinterpreted verse that have nothing to do with biblical election, and then say "Election should be accepted by all." [Yes, election is biblical, just not Calvinism's definition of it.]
And then they say that the debate about election is over who God chooses, and how. And they assure us that although they have their own private opinions about which is right, "We're not picking a side in the debate". They claim they want to find common ground, bring both sides together, and get everyone into a group hug.
At this point, my antenna went up immediately because it sounds like smooth-talk, preconditioning, a preemptive tactic to manipulate people into letting their guards down, as if they don't want anyone to notice that they're gonna say one thing but do another. Which is exactly what happened...
They go on to say that the two major sides of the "election" debate are:
1. "Some would say God has elected only some for receiving salvation, which means others are not. That makes a lot of people uncomfortable." And then he says "Notice in our essential doctrine that it does not discount free-will." So although they claimed they're "not taking sides," they totally tipped their hands that this is the side they're on, the one in line with their "essential doctrine". [FYI: "Free-will" in Calvinism is not really "free" at all, but you're only "free" to do what God predestined you to do, to follow the desires God gave you.]
2. "And some would say God has elected all and given them the possibility of salvation, that He has enabled it that anybody trusting in Christ could be saved."
He says that's the "who," but there's also debate about the "how":
1. "Some would say that God's election is based on His choice alone. Period!"
2. "Others would say God looks ahead and knows who would respond [in faith to His call], and He elected them."
He says that these two camps lead to conflict because "Some make it seem like salvation is limited to only certain people, and that makes us uncomfortable.... But the others make it sound like God didn't really do anything, that election in Scripture is just a fancy word that really means nothing if everybody can still be saved. If it's really by our choice, then where is God's choice in it?"
So after claiming that they're not taking a side and that it's okay whichever side you pick and that they just want to bring both sides together in a big group hug, they first reveal the side they're on when they tie "our essential doctrine" to the side that believes "God has elected only some for receiving salvation"... but then they go even further by slamming the other side (while sounding very smiley and nice about it, claiming tolerance and love and unity) essentially saying that the other side is unbiblical, ignoring Scripture, and cutting God out. And he presents a false dichotomy ("Either God does everything, or God does nothing") to force/manipulate people to get on his side. A very Calvinist way of operating.
Anyone who's really listening can clearly hear the side-taking, the manipulation, and the denigration of the other side. [So much for a "group hug!" But a Calvinist "group hug" isn't really about being friendly anyway, or about drawing people near in brotherly love, tolerance, or unity. A Calvinist "group hug" is about pulling us onto their side, keeping us near while they stealthily indoctrinate us with Calvinism, using our niceness and tolerance against us.]
Then they go on to say that no matter which view you take, you'll have tension with your views, and that this is common ground between both sides, and that we all need to learn to live with the tension.
DeleteTo me, this is not to comfort both sides that it's okay that there are true biblical mysteries and things we can't understand. But it's to manipulate the non-Calvinists into thinking that it's okay, normal, and even healthy and biblical that Calvinists have such massive contradictions and holes that they can't answer adequately or mesh with Scripture properly.
After all, it's their side that they repeatedly said people are "uncomfortable" with. And so if they can make it seem like it's okay/normal/healthy/biblical to have tension like that, then those on the non-Calvinist side might be more willing to come over to the Calvinist side, because they'll be convinced that uncomfortableness like that is normal.
It's to get us to believe that their terrible, wrong-sounding teachings are actually right and biblical but we just can't see it because "It's a mystery we can't understand anyway. Because God is so far above us tiny humans. And so we just have to learn to live with the tension and the unanswered questions and the terrible-sounding things that seem to contradict Scripture." (my words, not from the podcast)
[But Calvinist "mysteries" are not true biblical mysteries, things God didn't clearly reveal. Calvinist "mysteries" happen because they incorrectly interpret God's Word, things He did clearly reveal... but then they can't make their bad interpretations fit properly with Scripture and so they have to appeal to "mystery," convincing people that the "tension" is normal and good, that it proves God is God, and that good, humble, God-honoring Christians just live with the tension and don't dig deeper or try to figure out why it sounds so wrong. I'm sorry to say, but it's cult-like manipulation at its finest - using our desire to be humble and God-honoring against us and using God and His Word against God Himself, to manipulate us into accepting things (without pushback) that sound terrible, that destroy God's character and trustworthiness, that limit Jesus's sacrifice, that slams the door of heaven on most people, and that contradict His Word. Brilliant. Satanic.]
He says that even with the tension, it should still lead to confidence in evangelism for both sides anyway, because it's not an "if-maybe" but it's that "some are going to believe; people will be saved."
DeleteSaying it's not "if-maybe" is a swipe at those who believe anyone can be saved, that salvation is truly offered to all but we make the choice to accept it or reject it, a real free-will choice (not the fake Calvinist kind where people can only choose what God predestined them to choose). And saying "some will come; people will be saved" is a Calvinist way of saying "only the elect will be saved, those predestined for heaven."
[Calvinism and non-Calvinism have different gospels (see https://anticalvinistrant.blogspot.com/2024/01/calvinism-false-gospel-or-true-but.html) and different reasons for evangelism. Non-Calvinists evangelize to save anyone and everyone because they believe anyone can be saved - that God truly loves all, Jesus truly died for all, and so salvation is truly offered to all, but we have to decide for ourselves whether to accept it or reject it.
But in Calvinism, only the elect can be saved, and so evangelism is just a way to make the elect realize that they were always saved and to further condemn the non-elect when they reject it like they were predestined to do, further sealing their fate. This is why Calvinists claim to have a 100% success rate in evangelism - because their efforts produce exactly what God predestined: the elect will hear the gospel and believe, but the non-elect will reject it like God predestined and be punished for it. This is "success" in Calvinist evangelism. {For more, see https://anticalvinistrant.blogspot.com/2024/07/but-predestination-17-double-speak-and.html}
One wild thing to realize about Calvinist evangelism and the Calvinist gospel is that it rescues no one from hell. The Calvinist-elect were never on their way to hell at any point in time and the Calvinist-non-elect can never ever be saved from hell. All Calvinism does is convince the elect they were always saved and it lets the non-elect know that they can never be saved. That's sick!]
He goes on to say that "The doctrine of election doesn't negate anyone's responsibility for trusting in the gospel... These two things are not in conflict with one another because we are all called to believe..."
DeleteBe aware that, in Calvinism, this is NOT saying that anyone can believe, just that everyone is required to believe, even the non-elect who were predestined to hell... and so because the non-elect didn't do what was required (even though Calvi-god made sure they could never do it), they will be punished for it.
He then says "Humility! We have to remember that God has this figured out. He's the orchestrator of it. There's no tension here. It's a baffling mystery to us because we don't have the mind of God. So we can either stay in our tension of not understanding and get angry, or we can say 'We humbly trust in God, and He's got it figured out, and these are not in opposition. I can't figure it out.'... I cannot figure out how God's role in election and man's freedom coexist in perfect harmony. I don't understand but I know it's true, and I've got to trust in that and. in humility, just give it to God."
I can appreciate the heart here, the desire to trust in God and His character even when there's things we can't understand... but this is still manipulation, trying to get people to accept terrible-sounding and contradictory things, to not look into it too closely, to fall in line and not push back against it, by making it seem like it's the humble, God-honoring thing to do.
[And I find it odd that Calvinists convince themselves that they can trust God's character in the face of theological dilemmas... when their very theology destroys God's character and makes Him untrustworthy. Because, in Calvinism, God says one thing but means another. He means other things but doesn't reveal them. He offers things He made impossible for certain people to accept. He decrees things, but then He also decrees that people break His decrees. He wills one thing but causes the opposite. He commands people to do things that He prevents them from doing (repenting/believing), and He causes others to do things He commanded them not to do (sin/evil), but then He punishes them for it, as if they really had a choice about it. And not to mention Calvin's idea of "evanescent grace," that God sometimes gives non-elect people a temporary, fake faith that makes them feel like they are truly elect, truly saved, but later He takes it away to lead to greater blindness and condemnation in hell for them, but they themselves can't sense any difference between them and the real elect people until it's too late. If Calvinists think they can trust a god like this in the face of theological dilemmas, then I feel sorry for them. They're just fooling themselves, clinging to a wisp of a daydream. They have nothing solid and trustworthy to plant their feet on, their faith in - not with a god like that!]
And finally, he ends with the idea that we should all be comforted because "God has chosen some. Some will be saved. For us who are saved, it is a source of comfort and confidence that God is in control." [Sure, it's easy to be comfortable if you ignore what happens to those not chosen, those predestined to hell. It's easy to trust His alleged control over who gets saved when you think you're one of the ones He chose to save. (But remember... evanescent grace!)]
For anyone who knows the language Calvinists speak, this whole thing is clearly Calvinist. It's veiled and trying to appear tolerant of the other side, but it's Calvinism and it denigrates the other side. So yes, they are taking sides, and they are trying to manipulate/shame/force everyone onto their side. And this is what's behind The Gospel Project. Okay, now I'll be done commenting on The Gospel Project, but hopefully this is some information to get you started. :)
FYI: I added more information to my reply about The Gospel Project in these posts:
Deletehttps://anticalvinistrant.blogspot.com/2025/01/the-gospel-project-calvinist-or-not.html
https://anticalvinistrant.blogspot.com/2025/02/the-gospel-project-info-on-their.html
Hello. I am new to this site and hope I follow the comment rules appropriately. I was saved (believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and the Blood atonement for my sins) a few years ago. Finally got the courage to attend a Baptist church and even did my research to make sure it was not a reformed or calvinist church. Nothing on the website points to calvinism. After a year of attending this church I can not deny my convictions. The pastor is constantly giving quotes from popular calvinist preachers of today and names former calvinist theologians without ever using the term "calvinist". The pastor preaches from the KJV but a very telling sign for me is that every single piece of literature, (tracts, pamphlets) on display are from Crossway publishing and provides a website to the ESV site and is authored by known Calvinist preachers. Everyone at the church seems to be highly educated and I never hear anything about struggles with the old man or the flesh or backsliding or if one does backslide they were probably never saved to begin with. I get this "holier than though" feeling every week, and I knew something wasn't right. I do believe I need to find another church to attend and thankfully I never became a member. This should make it easier to just stop attending.
ReplyDeleteThanks for your site and the info provided. God Bless.
Hello, Concerned Christian! Thank you for visiting and commenting! (My rules are mostly there to weed out spam and people who want to be rude or push their views on others, especially views I don't agree with. So you did just fine. Thank you!)
DeleteI'm sorry that you got roped into a Calvinist church despite the fact that you tried to make sure it wasn't one. When I look back on the statement of faith of the church we left, there is no indication that it's now a fully reformed church. So I'm sure there are plenty of people who think it's merely a "biblical" church that preaches the gospel strongly. Those who don't know what to listen for may not recognize the Calvinism or even know that they should be listening for something "off."
You were wise to pay attention to who the pastor quotes and which books they push. Calvinists tend to promote each other, especially since they think they have "the truth."
Unfortunately - and I think this is one of the things that attracts unwary Christians - Calvinism is full of highly-educated people. I think it takes a lot of education to talk themselves into a theology like that, to cut-and-paste and reinterpret the Bible in a way that supports their views, and to find ways to excuse/rationalize/deny the contradictions and errors they create. But since they are so educated, they think they can't be wrong, and people trust them, and more and more people get brainwashed into Calvinism.
Personally, I think that the Calvinists of today are like the Pharisees and teachers of the Law in Jesus's day: highly-educated; proud and sure of themselves; confident that they have the truth and demanding that others come to them to learn it, etc. And it's their confidence in themselves and their education that makes them miss Jesus and the true gospel, even when it was right in front of them. Blinded by their own prideful education and lofty, spiritual, holier-than-thou status!
Incidentally, I hear from those in my ex-church that it's become very clique-ish and is full of negativity that makes people feel bad about themselves - which I can hear in the sermons - and fruit-inspecting (constantly evaluating the characteristics of who's saved and who's not). I had a big problem with it because there was no encouragement or support for hurting Christians, just lots of academic, theological information from a proud, condescending pastor.
I'm glad you never became a member either, because membership sometimes complicates it when you want to leave, especially 9Marks churches. I'm not sure if I'll ever become a member at another church again. But I hope you find one you like soon that preaches God's Word and truth as it was written. God-bless, and thank you for sharing your story! :)